Get a dose of the tardiness medicine
Professor Mark Grimsley: Ohio State University - HistoryDon’t be late. Seriously.
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Professor Mark Grimsley: Ohio State University - HistoryDon’t be late. Seriously.
View Professor Profile Your Comments
April 21st, 2008 at 3:33 pm
what a goon
April 21st, 2008 at 5:25 pm
This guy sounds like a ******.
April 21st, 2008 at 5:25 pm
The dude is a goon.
People may just walk in yor class late because they dont care, but some of us have legitamate reasons. What are people supposed to do, walk up to you and explain why they are late and then you have to grant access for them to sit or leave, or are they basically not allowed in. Either way its ridiculous, we’re not in highschool anymore, and your not teaching it either. Maybe you should just try and concentrate harder.
April 21st, 2008 at 6:32 pm
His explanation for not allowing tardiness (”breaks my concentration”) sounds disingenous. It appears he has an easily bruised ego and takes himself far too seriously. Best to avoid taking his classes.
April 21st, 2008 at 11:15 pm
The actual tardiness policy is as follows:
If you’re one or two minutes late, come on in — it’s a big campus and a minute or two sometimes is understandable.
If you’re more than two minutes late, I ask you to wait outside until ten minutes into the lecture, when everyone who’s running late is admitted at the same time.
If you’re later than that, I ask you to wait until the break –my classes typically run an hour and 48 minutes, with a break at midpoint.
Until I instituted this policy, I had a few students who wandered into class at any time they chose — in some instances as late as 25 and 30 minutes. It was distracting to the other students and highly distracting to me, since it usually caused me to lose my train of thought. This would probably be true for most instructors, but in my case I have bipolar disorder — what used to be called manic depression — and one side effect of the medications I take seems to be to increase my susceptibility to distractions of this sort. (Incidentally, in the comment re “Stop Blogging,” where I discussed how my military training has helped me deal with the challenges of real life, I was referring chiefly to the bipolar disorder.)
I’ll leave aside the “goon” and “douchebag” stuff, but English, you’re right: college isn’t high school. I expect my students to behave as adults. And guess what: upwards of 95 percent of them do. The tardiness policy exists for the 5 percent who don’t, and “maybe should just try and concentrate harder” to get to class on time, as most of their peers manage to do.
April 21st, 2008 at 11:24 pm
For all those who refuse to abide by the policy, I think you should not take professor Mark’s class. For the benefits of the most students, he is really doing what should be done.
It is a university level class, not a flea market. Students coming and going at any time not only distract other students, but also distract the instructor mostly. Any reduced quality of his teaching will impair the transfer of knowledge to the whole class. Don’t you think you are too selfish in that case?
Unless very special occasion, I do not think there is any case that student cannot avoid so that they can be in class on time. So those valid reasons are really mostly excuses.
For those who offer insulting remarks here, I think you should behave as an adult before being an idiot here.
April 22nd, 2008 at 2:08 am
Thanks for your service to your country, and for your advice about the life choices and how they will open or close the doors of opportunity.
April 22nd, 2008 at 11:13 am
Thanks, Frank and Ben.
I’d especially like to underscore what I said in the last clip, supposedly on “RateMyProfessors” but which I sort of hijacked so as to tell viewers something of substance. I was a very indifferent undergraduate. I got “A’s” in the courses I liked but often “B’s,” “C’s,” and in one case, even a “D+,” in courses that were required but that did not engage my interest. I can think of many ways in which, as an adult, I had to pay for the poor choices I made as an undergrad. I’m *very* lucky to be where I am today — a professor, doing something I like (and one of the few things I do really well) — because under ordinary circumstances my undergrad GPA would have debarred me from any decent graduate program in the country.
A chief reason I did poorly, btw, is that too often I blew off classes. So in my case the main problem was less tardiness than absenteeism. Either way, that sort of thing makes a very bad impression on an employer, so I tended to underestimate the impact of those things — especially that of being “just a few” minutes late — once I entered the working world. (I had a regular 9-to-5 job for a few years before going to grad school.)
And one of the many things I did not realize as an undergrad (probably since I worked part-time) is that my undergraduate studies were my *real* job. It’s amazing how the poor habits one acquires, or indulges, at the age of 18 or 21 can become, in effect, the features of one’s character. I think the main thing that turned me around was my initial active duty training in the Army. Brief though it was, it made a huge impression on me.
April 22nd, 2008 at 11:57 am
Two logical thesis in opposition. A. Students pay for education. B. Professors are paid to educate.
A. Implies that a “paying” student should get/attend what ever that student feels like. It’s their money.
B. The professor, a professional paid in part based upon the quality of the instruction (which is in turn based upon presence), is required to give just such quality to all.
Ergo, a student who is late (habitually, for the purpose of this argument) will get a lower grade because they learn less. This, in turn, negatively affects the professor in a disproportionate degree to the amount paid by the student.
Logic point goes to the professor. Not counting that most who are late are late by choice.
B
April 22nd, 2008 at 1:27 pm
I completely understand where you are coming from, Professor Grimsley. I feel if I were a professor it would really distract me if students were constantly strolling in throughout the class.
I also understand where the students are coming from, however, if this is a class that they really were interested in and wanted to take, I’m sure they would get over the rules you have and make it a point to get to class on time (and stop complaining.) If they are taking it because they have to and there is no other professor teaching the class, then I see where they would be mad…
I feel like these rules would annoy me too, but if students feel like they know they will have issues getting to class on time then they should look for another class to take… I know that no matter how hard I try I will be late every so often. I have always had an issue with being late… but after my first semester in college, I learned that I’d rather NOT be that girl that is always late every class.. and I have made a dramatic change and now come in on time MOST of the time.
I feel like students should be a bit more respectful and understanding that you have a problem with their coming in because its distracting… and they should just find another class to take if it’s really a big deal to you. I think it would be fair that you outline your issues with this in the beginning (on a syllabus–which I’m assuming you already do..) that way all the students will leave in the first 2 weeks that will have issues with it.
April 22nd, 2008 at 1:36 pm
I’m all for a “Don’t be late Policy”, especially as outlined above.
That being said, there are legitimate reasons for being late. The big one I can think of is your previous lecture went overtime. I had one prof who used to berate people for walking out of her lecture, even though she was already 9 minutes over (here there is a 10 minute ‘break’ between lectures to let you get from one class to the next, so the 9 minutes over meant that some people would have to be late to their next class).
I can’t stand people who are routinely late for classes for no other reason than ‘the busses get me here at that time’. You can always wake of earlier.
April 22nd, 2008 at 3:27 pm
I totally agree; people coming in late doesn’t just distract the proff, but other students, not to mention its noisy, too. The proff doesn’t get heard over the student settling themselves in, and then students can’t hear, start talking about the late person,etc. etc. There’s no excuse, everyone else can make it.
April 22nd, 2008 at 5:23 pm
Dale Atkins’ comment re professors who keep their students late reflects another issue on which I’m pretty rigid. I make a pact with my students *never* to keep them after the bell, and over the years have confronted, eyeball to eyeball, two professors who persistently continued their classes after the bell. It’s inexcusably rude to their own students, to the next instructor and students who must use the classroom, and, as Dale indicates, to the instructor and students in the classes the students of the offending professor have to go to next.
My advice, for any Ohio State students who may read this, is to contact the Deputy Registrar’s office. The university is *very* firm about enforcing the policy that classes must end on time whenever it’s notified that a problem exists.
April 23rd, 2008 at 4:08 am
I can’t agree more with this.I must say that you U.S.A fellows are quite lucky ones!In my country,China,keeping students late in class is the very symbol of a teacher’s fulfilling his duty~of course I am not censuring my teachers,they did no bad and that’s China’s education all over.In my opinion,one can only concentrate on sth for a certain period of time and keeping students late in calss gonna do no good to the efficiency.nice to talk to everybody here.
April 23rd, 2008 at 8:16 am
To all professors who enforce attendance:
This is a University not not an elementary school. Treat your students as the adults they are. They have a life and a full time job like you. Who cares if thet are late? It’s not the quality of hous they spend that matters, but the quantity that matters. As long as they don’t fail and have decent grades that’s the only that should matter to you. Besides their grades belongs only to them, and it’s only about then and not you. The students grades are their business, and it is up to them to decide show up or not to. It is not the professor’s business to run the students lives. Your business is to teach, and their business is to learn.
Attending college should be their choice and not yours. I just hate professors
like you who are anal, neurotic, and control feaks. Get over it!
April 23rd, 2008 at 8:17 am
To all professors who enforces attendance:
This is a University not not an elementary school. Treat your students as the adults they are. They have a life and a full time job like you. Who cares if thet are late? It’s not the quality of hous they spend that matters, but the quantity that matters. As long as they don’t fail and have decent grades that’s the only that should matter to you. Besides their grades belongs only to them, and it’s only about then and not you. The students grades are their business, and it is up to them to decide show up or not to. It is not the professor’s business to run the students lives. Your business is to teach, and their business is to learn.
Attending college should be their choice and not yours. I just hate professors
like you who are anal, neurotic, and control feaks. Get over it!
April 23rd, 2008 at 9:08 am
After having taught on the university level for 10 years, I can honestly say that when college students complain that they want to be treated like adults, it is becuase they ARE being treated like adults. While it is indeed up to the individual student to show up to class, show up late, and do homework, I am also certain that employers will not allow them to behave in such a manner. We have these outrageous policies to prepare you for life after college. If you don’t believe me, check out the Job Outlook Surveys (you can google the term) which chronicle employer requirements - they want employees with professionalism. Just a shot in the dark…
April 23rd, 2008 at 10:34 am
The posting by Anonymous is hysterical.
Kid, I *do* treat the 18, 19, 20, and 21 year olds I interact with as “adults.” I have to, they are soldiers and I am an officer. If they are late, they get in a helluva lot more trouble than what Professor Grimsley dishes out. If they “skip”, they lose pay, rank, and sometimes even their freedom. THAT is what it means to be “treated like an adult.”
I noted also that it is not “all about the student.” Self-centered sentiments like that will make you a wonderful employee at, say, Burger King some day. Because you cannot see the fact that you’re messing up the OTHER students, as well as the Professor, as well as missing material yourself when you stroll in late. Let’s say there are 99 students in a room, and the professor. Well when you be-bop in and distract those 99 (and the professor), you’ve just interfered with 100 OTHER people who are each equally as important as you, and collectively more important than you. So get over yourself kid. As much as you might like to deny the concept of a heliocentric system, the world does not, in fact, revolve around you!
Bob Bateman
April 23rd, 2008 at 11:09 am
A agree with you 100%.
Really tired of sdults acting like children and not taking responsibility for their own actions or lack therof.
April 23rd, 2008 at 11:12 am
Professor Grimley is right on point about many things, but I especially like his lateness policy. It seems fair to all students involved, sensible, and GENEROUS. There are professors who tell students that if they arrive late after a specified time, they will be counted as absent. I’ve heard of professors who tell their students that once they close the classroom door, they should not bother to enter. These are usually profs whose policy is to close the door after about a half hour.
Lose concentration in a class of over 250, impossible! Come on now, whoever it was that denigrated this idea. Why don’t you try lecturing to 250 people on a topic for which you may have prepared intricate lecture notes or are in the middle of thoughtfully responding to a question where you and the questioner are actually trying to THINK CRITICALLY and have person after person come in, sometimes not so subtly, and stay on point? This is not for the person who is late on occasion, but rather for those of you who are habitual latecomers.
Yes, professors expect you to act like adults because, despite your possibly tender age, you ARE adults. The military prof said it beautifully.
The next time that you want decent customer service and do not get it because some Bozo is on the other end of the line is putting you on hold while he chats with his buddy in the next cubicle about baseball scores, the hottie in accounting, or other such nonsense, think about this: he might just be the guy who you saw two years ago standing outside of Professor Grimsley’s class waiting for the break every day.
April 23rd, 2008 at 11:12 am
Professor Grimsley is right on point about many things, but I especially like his lateness policy. It seems fair to all students involved, sensible, and GENEROUS. There are professors who tell students that if they arrive late after a specified time, they will be counted as absent. I’ve heard of professors who tell their students that once they close the classroom door, they should not bother to enter. These are usually profs whose policy is to close the door after about a half hour.
Lose concentration in a class of over 250, impossible! Come on now, whoever it was that denigrated this idea. Why don’t you try lecturing to 250 people on a topic for which you may have prepared intricate lecture notes or are in the middle of thoughtfully responding to a question where you and the questioner are actually trying to THINK CRITICALLY and have person after person come in, sometimes not so subtly, and stay on point? This is not for the person who is late on occasion, but rather for those of you who are habitual latecomers.
Yes, professors expect you to act like adults because, despite your possibly tender age, you ARE adults. The military prof said it beautifully.
The next time that you want decent customer service and do not get it because some Bozo is on the other end of the line is putting you on hold while he chats with his buddy in the next cubicle about baseball scores, the hottie in accounting, or other such nonsense, think about this: he might just be the guy who you saw two years ago standing outside of Professor Grimsley’s class waiting for the break every day.
April 23rd, 2008 at 11:28 am
I remember many years ago, there was this pretty, hot babe in my class (I was a lot younger then, too). She had some great outfits, semi-provocative, and always interesting. She habitually came late to my class. The entry door was up front to my left. What was distracting to me as the prof was that every time she walked in, all 70 eyes in the class–male, female, straight, gay–turned towards her and followed her until 10 seconds after she found a seat and got her self settled. It was difficult enough for me not to pay attention to her and continue with the lecture. It was impossible for me to not be distracted by my students’ distraction.
I did then began to lock the door from the inside, etc., but that was an obvious fire/unexpected vomit/menses/sphincter-issue hazard. So I just learned better to ignore the tardies and the momentary loss of eye contact as I got older. Good luck, Grimsley. It’ll get better.
April 23rd, 2008 at 11:44 am
I completely agree with the posting of Robert Bateman. It is rude and distracting for students to arrive late to class for any reason other than the previous professor being the cause. What’s even more annoying are the students who consistently arrive late to class, only to act as though their presence indicates class may commence! As for the ‘anonymous’ posting, it isn’t,” It’s not the quality of hous they spend that matters, but the quantity that matters.” It’s actually,” It isn’t the quantity of hours they spend that matters, but the quality of hours.” You should want more than just a ‘decent’ grade to get by. Remember, these grades follow you the course of your lifetime and may negatively affect your future choices of graduate studies, jobs, etc. While it it true that it is the professor’s responsibility to render quality instruction, it is also the student’s responsibility to take advantage of every educational opportunity afforded to them.
April 23rd, 2008 at 11:49 am
What a ******
April 23rd, 2008 at 3:29 pm
So as a guy you noticed and dedided to post about it…
April 23rd, 2008 at 5:45 pm
Outside of an emergency students should be on time for class and it is rude to interrupt the class. If that start time is bad sign up for a different sectionsIt not only distracts the teacher but the whole class as the same student that is 20 min late to every class and instead of sitting near the door leasurely strolls in front of the professor while he/she istalking. Granted you did pay for the class but you paid for the opportunity to learn it is not the same as “buying credits”. One student paying or not cannot be allowed to disrupt the learning of the other students who equally paid for the course. That is why cellphones in class are also annoying.
Regardless students who do that usually fail anyway. I typically consider that punishment enough.
April 23rd, 2008 at 6:16 pm
Larry, you gotta love Mark’s response. It’s so typical of adolescent boys who are still confused about their orientation. I’ve gotten the occasional bizarre anonymous comment like this from disaffected male students after their lousy semester is over (the college’s evaluation and RMPs). I guess ultimately it’s a safer outlet than running through the streets with baseball bats beating up “suspects.” Mark doesn’t even know that he could have made that same comment signing the name “Mary” (as J. Edgar Hoover would have done) thereby rendering his secret obsession “straight.” But I guess that would have really made Mark feel unmanly. Too bad kids can’t just say how they feel about the professor and his teaching.
April 23rd, 2008 at 10:12 pm
Ah yes, the eternal battle between students and professor. I normally teach the 8am course and invariably students are walking in 10+ minutes late. This semester it is the worst as the door has a squeeky hinge. I actually tried an attedance policy last semester and I was crucified by students and administration. I warned that a pop quiz would be given if a student walked in more than 10 minutes late or their cell phone went off in class. Guess what, after 16 weeks of class, only 2 pop quizes. Most days, students were in there seats ready to go at the start of class. Due to the overwhelming negative reaction I rescinded that policy (changed it to a professionalism component of their grade) for the current semester and I can’t get students to show up on time. Of course now they are complaining becuase their habitual tardiness (read: unprofessional behavior) has dropped them half a letter grade.
I’ll repeat what’s already been said. An attendance policy is treating you like an adult. The syllabus is a contract and you agree to live by that contract if you stay in the class. An employer would fire you if you were always showing up late (especially to a meeting). But most importantly, get off your high horses. You are paying for the opportunity to learn, you are not payin for the grade.
April 24th, 2008 at 1:02 am
I get a kick out of professors that like to call the syallabus a “contract”, and ‘cleverly’ equating being late to class with showing up late to work. Guess what, this is nothing like a job. Why, you ask, well…we actually PAY YOU! I have never had a job where I pay hundreds of dollars just to show clock in and get berrated by the boss. How is this like a job?
We pay for an education. We don’t pay to come and get hassled about some ridiculous little policy that you professors feel the need to point out every time it happens. So what, people show up late, with 3-400 kids in one study hall, I would say the overall attendance is pretty darn good.
I don’t doubt it is tough to teach a class of that size, but taking letter grades away from students for being late? Absurd!
April 24th, 2008 at 3:02 am
The problem is with the current generation of students who feel it is someone else’s responsibility to make them successful. I’ve not met many students born from 1986 on that have any clue about life. Stop thinking professors owe you something. Get your head out of your rear and show some respect! You are lucky to have a professor at all-but probably your parents are paying for your college anyway. Kinda makes the comment about “I’m paying for his salary” sound stupid. Most likely you haven’t paid for a damn thing your entire life. Your parents most likely hover over you and your success in the VERY difficult world will be meaningless and horrible, especially with an attitude that your time is better than your professors, etc, etc, etc. Grow the f_ _ _! UP! Your time, opinion, and tuition mean nothing-know why??? “You don’t have a degree yet, asshole!” Once you have a bachelor, master, Phd-then your f_ _ _in’ comments may mean something. Problem with universities is for whatever reason they allow undergraduates to express themselves-take it for me-your opinion MEANS NOTHING and most likely NEVER will. Have a great day! Don’t forget to vote in November. Don’t forget to file your taxes in April-they all have deadlines and structure too-oh, I forgot-you think everyone owes you something……..
April 24th, 2008 at 8:31 am
Damn, I’m a 24 year old business law student and wow do I agree, a lot of kids are so damn retarded, have no work ethic, and no value or understanding of where money comes from. I’ve been in school for 7 years only because I have to work my way through. This professor is right though, kids have no work ethic, no clue, no common sense, and very little intellect and understanding of a multitude of things. Great to know I’m a little smarter than most, and have an edge on the degenerates I’ll be fighting against throughout my career.
April 24th, 2008 at 9:13 am
Since I imagine this site may soon remove the comment referenced by Ramon–as it did with a similar comment a day or two ago–I’d like to underscore that the “Mark” in his comment is one who self-identified as “Mark Anthony,” not me. Both comments are attempts to abuse and perhaps bait me based on homophobia.
A better tactic is one occasionally used on the RateMyProfessors main site, which plays upon the well known fact that I have bipolar disorder. This is a condition I bring up whenever it is appropriate as a way to undercut, if only slightly, the stigma that attaches to any mental illness. I generally raise the issue at least once in every class–in my US history survey I did so in the context of the 19th work of Dorothea Dix on behalf of the mentally ill. That’s because in a class of 200 students, statistically speaking, two either have been, or will be, diagnosed with the disorder. Many more students will have similar disorders (depression, dysthymia), or know friends, family, etc. who do.
In each and every case where I have done so, at least one student has approached me afterward, acknowledged that they too have to deal with bipolar disorder, and express their appreciation that I’m out in the open about it. Many feel isolated and welcome the chance to talk about ways to manage the disorder.
A few students, unfortunately, exploit my candor. For instance, here’s a comment posted yesterday:
“Grimsley’s class is filled with an overemphasis on bizarre illustrations, bizarre overemotional outbursts, and generally inappropriate behavior.”
This claims to be a comment by a student who took my History 380 (History of War) course, which ended in early March. Coincidentally, I received the results of my Student Evaluation of Instruction for that course yesterday. 56 percent of students gave my overall performance the highest rating (5), 33 percent the next highest (4), and 11 percent the middle rating (3). None gave me a rating any lower than that. 59 percent of students gave me the highest rating under “well organized,” 59 percent the highest rating re “intellectually stimulating,” 78 percent of students gave me the highest possible rating with regard to “instructor interested in teaching,” 67 percent with regard to “well prepared.”
Consequently, it is hard to believe that the commenter was motivated by anything save malice. But if you’re going to be malicious, playing upon the bipolar disorder is a good way to go. It certainly exploits the self-doubt that, in the nature of the case, a person with the disorder generally has to deal with.
April 24th, 2008 at 11:04 am
When my sons worked Scout camp they were taught the following about being on time:
To be early is to be on time,
To be on time is to be late,
To be late is to be fired!
10 years later, they still live by this rule.
So to all of the whiners who don’t like the tardy policy all I have to say is wait till you have to get a real job. Tardiness will be the least of your problems.
April 24th, 2008 at 11:30 am
He is just trying to help students. People that go on Ratemyprofessor.com are looking to blame their lack of motivation on a professor. get a life and stop hating the professor. spend that energy on your homework and studying. if he’s such an awful teacher, why does he work at a major university? he’s not so bad..he would make me mad now and then. But I wouldn’t blame my grade or tardiness on his policies.
April 24th, 2008 at 1:23 pm
To say people that go to ratemyprofessor.com are looking for people to blame their teachers for bad grades is very disingenuous Courtney, you truly felt that way you wouldn’t be here to post your comment.
April 24th, 2008 at 2:22 pm
This was great!! I wish more professors would engage their students more and provide us with more understanding as to their policies and teaching practices. I completely agree with the late policy and feel that it’s distracting for me when students stroll in late to class. Especially the ones that do it on a daily basis. That’s just ridiculous and completely disrespectful to the professor and the class. I wish more professors would implement this policy. Kudos to you Mark Grimsley, and thank you for serving our country.
April 24th, 2008 at 2:28 pm
ps, i also think it’s wonderful that you disclose your personal struggle with bipolar disorder to your classes. My mother suffers from this and it was something i was terrified of revealing to anyone while growing up. Thank you so much for helping to destigmatize mental illness.
Deanna Chism/Nursing student-Oakland University
April 24th, 2008 at 4:31 pm
I have a professor who couldn’t care less when a student walks in late. The door is at the front of the room, whenever a student comes in late they are in front of the entire class, and no one even looks twice. The teacher will continue speaking, and the students will continue listening.
Being late is only a big deal if YOU make it a big deal. I personally hate being late, but it happens more than often. Either way, us students are paying thousands of dollars a year to mediocre universities, while the government is completely screwing us with our financial aid, and the world is turning into a terrible place. I think there’s a lot more to get worked up about than being late.
April 24th, 2008 at 4:44 pm
Also, you ARE a professor.. there are certain behaviors you must expect with college students. Especially in a class of 300 people? Honestly.. It IS your job to deal with these kind of situations and sometimes you just have to let things go. I don’t know how any reasonable human being could expect 300 other human beings to be at one place at the exact same time.. we’re only HUMAN BEINGS!!
April 24th, 2008 at 5:22 pm
Thanks for the supportive comments, and I have the impression the lines are now pretty clearly drawn between those who see the tardiness policy as being reasonable and those who do not.
Re the sense of entitlement among undergraduates: I too have noticed an uptick in that during my years as a professor, but I don’t recall that things were all that different when I was an undergrad. The most pronounced shift in behavior I’ve seen among the undergraduates at OSU goes in a different direction.
Until two or three years ago, I practically never had a student compliment me on my teaching until after the course had ended, the final exam had been taken, and in many cases, the grades had been turned in. They were afraid of coming off as a brown-noser. Nowadays I receive student compliments on a regular basis while the course is still underway. Lest someone sneer that this is a generation that doesn’t hesitate to brown-nose: my courses are so large that in most cases, I don’t know the students’ names, they know I don’t know, and my T.A.’s are the ones who grade their exams, anyway. It’s quite plainly a spontaneous act of generosity on the students’ part, and very welcome.
Deanna: I want to thank you particularly for your comments about my candor concerning bipolar disorder. Like yours, my mother also had bipolar disorder, and had to contend not just with the stigma — which in those days was fearful — but with inadequate medications (lithium, a now standard drug, was not even approved by the FDA until the early 1970s), an initially mistaken diagnosis of schizophrenia (a common error among U.S. psychiatrists in those days), and frankly, a dearth of sympathy and support from her own family. It was a pretty tough blow to find myself at age 26 diagnosed with the same illness, but the treatment for, and level of understanding of, the disorder have vastly improved.
It’s regrettable that a stigma persists, though I find it less pervasive — or at least more subtle — than twenty years ago. Bipolar disorder is in any case a defect of biochemistry, no different in that respect than diabetes. The tools to manage that defect are already in place and getting better over time. Two basic problem areas remain: a) too many Americans lack decent health care coverage and therefore proper access to the medications and therapies available; and b) the fear of acknowledging the illness — to others and sometimes to oneself — often imprisons those with bipolar disorder and prevents them from receiving the support that, stigma notwithstanding, many good people would be glad to give.
April 24th, 2008 at 7:37 pm
Just be on time you good for nothing slackers….you interrupt the smart students time, seriously if you can’t be on time, time and time again you should just drop out of school now and save allot of money….lame lame lame.
April 24th, 2008 at 8:56 pm
Melody,
You seem not to have read my policy, which, although you may find yourself still in disagreement with it, does *not* dictate that students have to be at one place at the exact same time. It permits students who are just a minute or two late to enter at once, for students who arrive later to wait until 10 minutes into the lecture, and any students who arrive after that to wait for the mid-class break, at which we transition to the second of two lectures scheduled for that day. I would appreciate your explaining to us what makes this policy unreasonable. My students have had no trouble in following it, and from the “vibe” of the class, we have so far had a very pleasant experience together. I’ve certainly enjoyed them, and they seem to enjoy me.
The current class borders on 200 students, and over the years I have found that if one creates what might be called of scaffolding of basic ground rules that are consistently, not capriciously enforced, then within the environment created thereby it is possible to for students and instructor to interact in a relaxed manner in which there’s room for a good deal of banter and laughter in addition to the workaday task of teaching and learning the course material. Assuming for the sake of discussion that my description of the classroom dynamic is accurate, what’s the problem with fostering and respecting rules that make such a dynamic possible?
April 24th, 2008 at 9:16 pm
PS - I am no more willing to have those who disagree with my views to be denounced as “good for nothing slackers,” etc., than to be abused myself. Civility is a two way street, and surely it’s possible to discuss these issues without stooping to insults. Possibly the ability to heap abuse upon other human beings from a position of de facto anonymity is the chief appeal of the “rate my professors” project. If so, it is a toxic project, and not one in which I care to continue any engagement. I have already decided that to look at the main “rate my professors” site is, at best, a waste of time, and at worst, corrosive to the self respect that any healthy person ought to possess and protect. I’ve therefore sworn off any further looks at whatever comments may appear about me on the main site. It just isn’t good for the soul.
Test the site yourself. How many comments can you find that are actually constructive and supported by evidence, rather than perfunctory “attaboys” and condemnations?
Because *this* site — I mean the “Professors Strike Back” site — permits comments that are better developed (notwithstanding the inability of certain commenters to post complete sentences), I have so far found it worthy of engagement. I don’t find the arguments of those who are seemingly opposed to much of any course policies to be persuasive, but I think the subtext — the sense of being treated in a way that they experience as belittling — has validity. This I think is reflected in the portion of Melody’s comment that reads, “students are paying thousands of dollars a year to mediocre universities, while the government is completely screwing us with our financial aid, and the world is turning into a terrible place.” There’s a sense of powerlessness here, and a sense of powerlessness leads to a sense of unfairness that, quite rightly, generates anger. I don’t like to feel treated unfairly, either, or treated as a cog in a vast, impersonal system, or to sense that I am not getting value for my money. It’s not an either/or: *either* you care about course policies *or* you care about the quality of the students’ experiences. Both are important.
April 25th, 2008 at 1:07 am
Students take go to class to be inspired by a teacher’s instruction, and interpretation of the textbook. They may be graded on what they learn, but it’s your job to make it interesting for them. The quality of your instruction can affect their grade. As a professor you grade the students work. They have EVERY RIGHT to grade you as a professor. If your going to dish it out, you have to be able to take it. You shouldn’t ignore the negative posts, or take them to heart either. Use them as constructive criticism. If you want to learn from a great professor I had at Santa Monica College, look at Nate Brown.
Go To: http://www.ratemyprofessors.com/ShowRatings.jsp?tid=151217&page=1
April 25th, 2008 at 4:48 am
Students do have every right to grade a professor as an instructor. But surely you’re not suggesting that “dishing it out,” presumably in the form of assigning grades concerning exams, book reviews, etc., along with comments to explain the grades, is equivalent to “taking it” in the form of thumbnail assessments that a) are not representative of the class and, because ratemyprofessors has no mechanism to prevent this, may not be from students who are even enrolled in the course; and b) the comments are too cursory in most cases to be hepful; and 3) some consist of simple insults.
The question is whether ratemyprofessors.com is a useful instrument. Initially I thought it was, and for several quarters provided a direct link from my online syllabus to the site, hoping to receive constructive criticism. My decision occurred after seeing a comment regarding an upper division military history class in which the obviously male student asserted that I cared only for the few females in the class. At first that struck me as bizarre. Then I perceived that it might be the unintended consequence of implementing what I’d learning in a pedagogy seminar about the ways in which male and female students have been socialized. When you ask a question in class, the very first hands to go up are almost invariably male. Men and women in our society have been socialized differently, and women will usually hold back a moment before raising their hand. And in a course that was 85 percent male and only 15 percent female, they often felt a bit intimidated. Consequently I made a point of not always calling on the first person to raise a hand, and if I asked a question of a student directly, it was more often a female student. So in that instance, the ratemyprofessors.com yielded a useful insight, albeit one you had to guess at based on the brevity of the comment itself.
Over time, however, I have found ratemyprofessors far less helpful that two other instruments by which students can in effect “grade” me as a professor.
The first is the Student Evaluation of Instruction (SEIs), in which students are asked to rate me from 1 (worst) to 5 (best) in ten standard categories:
Well organized
Intellectually stimulating
Instructor interested in teaching
Encouraged independent thinking
Instructor well prepared
Instructor interested in helping students
Learned greatly from instructor
Created learning atmosphere
Communicated subject matter clearly
Overall rating
The ratings are then compared against three comparison groups: equivalent classes at the OSU departmental, college, and university level.
A second are the discursive evaluations, in which students may offer any comments they wish concerning the class.
Both sets of evaluations are collected by persons other than the instructor — who may not be in the room when they are administered — and the instructor does not receive the results until the following quarter (semester).
The SEIs are required to be forwarded to the department each year and form part of the dossier by which merit raises are determined. They also figure in promotion and tenure decisions.
In what way does ratemyprofessors.com improve upon either of these instruments?
April 25th, 2008 at 6:59 am
Frank: Incidentally, I did follow your suggestion to look at Prof. Brown’s evaluations, and agree with you that they are by and large constructive and genuinely helpful. Most students obviously like Prof. Brown, but for the most part they give specific reasons — I saw very few “attaboys”, and those who have more measured assessments also explain their reasoning. If any comments were abusive, I failed to see them. The students at Santa Monica College are apparently a very civil bunch, at least where Prof. Brown is concerned. I was sufficiently intrigued to sample the comments for some other professors at Santa Monica, and these were more along the lines of what I’ve come to expect — personal abuse, extreme characterizations, sweeping generalities, etc. The one aspect in common with the example you identify is that they tend to be better fleshed out.
If I could count on such comments as the norm here at Ohio States — sans the personal abuse — I would concur with your appraisal of the utility of ratemyprofessors. But I suspect that different institutions have different cultures in terms of the uses to which the site is put. I think I’ve given the site a fair trial over the years, and on balance have reached the conclusion that, for me at least, it isn’t very helpful.
April 25th, 2008 at 8:24 am
To Frank Marker: There are certain subjects that are potentially more interesting than others. A small, communications class the purpose of which is to get everyone participating is inherently more interesting than a history lecture aimed at 200 students (Brown v. Grimsley). I think kids don’t realize that they’re comparing apples and oranges sometimes. (”Why can’t my Quantum Physics prof be as interesting as my Psychology of Human Sexual Variance prof?”) There are different types of learning that take place and different types of learners (meaning, there are always students–given a large enough sample– who would find the Physics course more engaging). I will grant you that there are interesting and boring professors in every field, and it’s incumbent upon the professor to be as intellectually stimulating as he can. Though, to be considered “interesting” by the majority of the students, Grimsley might have to resort to screening _Triumph des Willens_ and _Apocalypse Now_ for the kids rather than lecturing about those deathly boring Treaties of Versailles. But that just might turn into entertainment rather than education.
Grimsley should be compared to other History professors not to Speech professors.
April 25th, 2008 at 10:37 pm
Ramón has an interesting point about apples and oranges. That said, Prof. Brown really does seem to be a very gifted teacher, and the comments on his site are largely constructive. Since I followed Frank Marker’s suggestion, I wonder if he’d return the favor: look at the comments on my site and offer his impressions as to how many of them, whether positive or negative, offer useful feedback.
BTW: as it happens, I *do* show a lot of film clips, though rarely complete films. I do it for reasons of pedagogy, not to curry favor, and although most students like the media-intensive approach, I’ve actually had one or two students on RMP complain about it: too History Channel, etc.
April 25th, 2008 at 11:21 pm
I left PSU after 18 years service. Students cont. to be late, unprepared, not showing an interest in Art, & wanting an easy “A”. When they had to work in class and complete assignments I have a poor rating. Glad I left teaching.
April 26th, 2008 at 12:37 am
I’m a college professor who routinely teaches some pretty heavy science to classes of 200+. I feel your pain Mark. I think it’s amazing how you students sit there in lecture and act like no one can see you sleeping, talking, texting on your phone and then there you are in my office balling your head off because you need an A to get into med school and are begging for points. And why should I do that when you showed such great disdain and disrespect for my time and the material that was being taught? Oh yeah I’ll give you some points, just plant it right here on my backside first you whiney little pukes.
April 26th, 2008 at 9:58 am
I find it interesting that every single person commenting about how they should be cut slack for tardiness seems to centre it on their own person: “I’m paying, so who are you to tell me I shouldn’t be late, treat me like an adult, this isn’t a job because I’m paying you for an education.”
If you were terribly interested in that education, you might try to be on time, all the time, every time. Yes, crap happens and sometimes people are late, but there’s some people that crap always seems to happen to - and those are the people Dr. Grimsley is targeting.
Why? Because every. single. other. person. in that classroom has *also* paid thousands of dollars to be there, and they deserve the full attention of everybody else in that classroom - be it the professor when it’s a lecture, or be it their fellow classmates when participation has been invited.
Melody, if you’re feeling that poorly-served by the university - why continue going? Seriously. You’re wasting your time and money, the time of your professors, the time of the staff who support those profs, the time of your fellow students, and the money of the taxpayers who support your so-called education. (Do you *really* think that the tuition you pay covers the full cost of everything involved in keeping a school open for you to attend?)
Do yourself a favour - quit, and figure out what you really want to do, before you’re forced out the door anyway and have the education option removed from you.
April 26th, 2008 at 11:38 am
Amen MikeP
April 26th, 2008 at 10:04 pm
I’m sorry..why is this policy crazy? It makes absolute sense to me! It’s really distracting when other students walk in late. And some of the late students have the gall to walk right in front of the teacher! What irritates me even more is when students leave early. Seriously why come if you’re not going to stay the whole time? It’s very distracting, and more importantly, it’s RUDE! Imagine how the professor feels? Yeah, you may be paying for it, but I am paying too, and I don’t want to waste my money watching you mosey in 30 minutes late, then try to squeeze your way through to a seat in the middle of the room. Yeah, some of yall are right, college is not highschool, so if you want to be treated like an adult, why don’t you try acting like one?
April 26th, 2008 at 11:13 pm
I am not in Ohio State University, but I am a college student and I want to congratulate you, professor Mark, for your videos. Especially the last one, because those teachers that, beyond getting their salary and getting the lecture done, care about teaching and helping their students are, without a doubt, the best ones and the ones that we need in colleges. I know that it is not actual class material, but I always appreciate those professors that take 1 minute to say something valuable to the students, whether it is class related or not. I bet many might think that’s class time wasted, but it really isn’t, not for those who see it from my perspective. And I guess there is always someone who won’t like something, so you really cannot satisfy everyone always.
April 27th, 2008 at 12:20 am
Have you ever been late? We paid to be in class. We pay taxes too. You have no idea what may have made us late. We all have real lives outside class. From time to time things happen. I am sure you came from a perfect life and all you had to do was go to class when you were in school. Some of us are working through school. Some of us have kids and families. Remember or right are granted by God and insured by soldier, airmen, sailors and US MARINES who we owe much more respect to than you who hide behind your ivey coverd walls and the freedoms they protect. P.S. I will keep parking in faculty parking and getting away with it
April 27th, 2008 at 1:30 am
The professor’s policy is reasonable. I’ve never read so much self-indulgent whining as on this thread. Get over yourselves, people. You’re not not special. Everyone else showed up on time. So should you. Get a life.
April 27th, 2008 at 2:19 am
Yes while the policy may be reasonable, the professor in this case seems to feel the need to justify himself, such as listing all of his percentages on his evals, etc.
Pretty immature if you ask me- I can appreciate a good back and forth but this is just ABSURD. First of all wasting your time posting videos and then novel length postings every other day is a waste of OSU’s time and money.
I’ll be waiting for the response…………
April 27th, 2008 at 8:42 am
Bryan,
Kid, you really ought to go to college and learn how to do research. See, because if you do (it appears you have not, or if you did, must’ve been late for that class) you’d learn something interesting about Professor Grimsley…
When you cited the military as worthy of support, and made assumptions about his spending his life in an “ivy covered tower” you demonstrated that you are not aware that Professor Grimsley WAS a soldier.
Ignorant kid, you are just plain ignorant. Hell. The fact is in one of the damned videos. Are you really *that* dense?
Moreover, and speaking for myself now, as a professional infantry officer for nigh on 20 years now, I can without reservation tell you that pathetic appeals using *us* (in the military) as a defense for your own inability to display the personal discipline that one needs merely to be on time, pisses us off. Especially from a civilian. (Yes, that’s an assumption on my part. Forced on me because you are too cowardly to use your full name.)
In short, be on time. And stop hiding behind us in uniform or trying to use us for your weasley excuses.
By the way, I put myself through college, and had a wife, three kids, and two house payments to make when I went back through grad school. So on that count as well I consider you a whiner.
Bob Bateman
Lieutenant Colonel, Infantry
US Army
April 27th, 2008 at 2:19 pm
I’m with you Prof. I get sick of morons who can’t get their butts out of bed–day after day after day. Funny how everybody else manages to get there on time, prepared, and ready for the class. But in rolls Mr. or Ms. Arrogant who is so important that everybody in the class, and the Prof’s agenda, are so insignifcant that they can just wait around until you decide to get to class. Get a life moron–we’re sick of your selfishness!!
April 27th, 2008 at 3:47 pm
Pedro - Thanks for your comment re the last of the clips. That’s very kind of you.
Bryan - I think LTC Bateman has clarified matters for you. As I indicated in my clip, my military service was very modest, but it taught me a great deal that has been helpful to me in life, and for that I’m grateful. I’m also proud that I chose to serve my country in uniform. My impression is that you seem proud that *others* have chosen to serve, and thereby defend your inalienable right to park in the faculty parking lot. Keep it up. If you stop, it will mean the terrorists have won.
Jon - I refer you to Pedro’s comment, which underscores my belief that as professors we owe students something beyond just teaching them the course material, testing them on it, and then returning to our research. It is important to pass along some of the things we have learned from life that they may find of value in their own lives.
To spell out my primary purpose in posting on this thread, it’s principally to emphasize that I have bipolar disorder, that this has not hindered me from leading a fairly normal life and to function effectively as a professor, and that some few people (like the poster of the comment I quoted) choose to exploit the stigma the illness carries for purposes of abuse, but that most people are supportive. The bottom line is to do what I can to erode the stigma that still remains concerning people with mental illnesses.
To clarify a couple of things: MtvU sought me out and went to the time and trouble to interview, edit my comments, and post them. The cost in time to me was all of 45 minutes. You are right to intuit that I’ve spent several times that amount of time participating in the discussion my interview has generated. If, after reading this response to your comment, you still consider this immature or a waste of my time, that’s fine. How you can consider this a waste of OSU’s time and money is hard to fathom, unless you believe that I have no time of my own.
April 27th, 2008 at 10:57 pm
So, I took his class last quarter, and I usually get along with teachers that kids say are “*******”, “********”, etc. Honestly, I just do. Anyways, I would just kind of sit back with my friends and laugh at some of the **** he did, but really he wasn’t a bad teacher and yea he was kind of intense and that was funny, but I did learn things and I did pretty well in the class. I dreaded taking a history course, but it was better than others that require more of you than 2 midterms and a final.
My favorite part was the fact that one day he called me brilliant..that was pretty neat, haha. I’ll keep that one in mind for a while.
Anywho, he’s kind of a drag, but all around it’s not THAT bad and if all you can say is “********” that requires little thought and really gives NO ONE any feedback about anything.
April 27th, 2008 at 11:05 pm
Get a life! We pay for class and have a life of our own. That’s why we are sometimes late!
April 27th, 2008 at 11:46 pm
I was once a student who was often late for class, and I regret it and wish I could apologize to past teachers, employers, etc. While I don’t know anyone’s personal story, I would be willing to bet that many who are late dislike this aspect of their behavior and are stressed about it. If they are stressed (especially during that speed walk/run across campus), it suggests they know on some level it is not appropriate behavior. Often times, a way to relieve the stress is to say the system is wrong…because, after all, I am always right, and who are you to say otherwise. I used this tactic all the time.
The good news is that it’s not too late to change for those who want to, the bad news is that under most circumstances the person is an adult, and it’s too late to be guided by an authority figure. So, the change/discipline has to come from within, and it’s hard when it is habit. Further, many aspects of the typical college life precludes developing the discipline necessary to break the habit. I ‘m not making excuses for my past behavior, just saying I wish I would have given more respect to my professors and classmates. So for any dismayed professors out there, keep up the good work, and there’s always hope for even those who consistently arrive late. (And don’t take it too personally, it is likely that the behavior is a habit or a symptom of something bigger…and they probably run late even for meetings with people the care for)
April 28th, 2008 at 2:07 am
I don’t take offense to you trying to make a difference in people’s minds about the disorder, and I do take offense to those who attack an uncontrollable disease. I know a couple people very closely who have the disorder, but I do not think RMP is the correct forum to change the world, and other’s ignorant views. While you are human, and you may have genuine motives in spreading your insight, that does not change the fact that you are a professor and students are paying tuition and some may have gripes about a policy they see as unfair.
Professors who care what knowledge their students leave a semester with is great, but I think you are going about it in a childish way. We can all applaud your overcoming obstacles that some may not be able to, but come on- Rate My Professors?
In terms of wasting OSUs time, you have obviously spent much more than 45 minutes on this URL. Obviously, you have a right to do as you please on your own time, but I’d say you’ve spent close to 3-4 hours with your lengthy responses. Maybe wasting $$ was the wrong term of art, but again I think you should realize how petty this comes across.
To each his own, and as I said the policy may be “fair” and serve a valid purpose, but some of you statements in your posts seem quite petty. Feeling the need to post your evaluation scores is as immature, if not more, than the whiners who couldn’t deal with your stated policy.
April 28th, 2008 at 10:50 am
Jon,
I think we read it differently. Prof. Grimsley is a historian. Historians (well, the good ones anyway) cite evidence in support of any thesis. That’s why an academic historical work might have, literally, a thousand endnotes.
So when I saw the posting of the numbers, I just read it as a historian being a historian. He had a thesis, and that thesis demanded that he present evidence in support of the thesis. Pretty simple if you look at it that way.
Bob Bateman
April 28th, 2008 at 2:16 pm
Bob,
I realize you’re point, but is this the right forum for his “thesis?” And secondly, what exactly is his thesis? People responded to his late policy in this forum, and except for possibly one or two “out of line” remarks (I havent read them all), he turns this whole thing into a sociology forum about bi-polar disorder.
I think the cause of his numerous posts hinge on him possibly compensating for how he didn’t like how he “came off” in the videos. I could be wrong, however, as I must say that the message in his last video is very well-stated, and he should have just let this whole thing end with that- on top.
Otherwise, as I believe he has, he presents himself in a very immature manner, which struck me as quite odd for the likes of a college professor.
He seems to be justifying his rants on the videos in odd ways, and then comes back turning it all around on people’s ignorance of the disorder which effects probably close to 10 million people (whether diagnosed or undiagnosed). Why feel the need to explain yourself to people who obviously don’t come to RMP for a humanities lesson?
While I admit I did not read his “ratings” on RMP until today, it seems to me that he has great evaluations on the site minus about 3-5% of his students. As an assistant law professor myself, no one can expect to conform to everyone’s learning style– if he had 50% poor reviews I may find a little more justification to his “thesis,” but come on. To expect 100% perfect evals is ridiculous and I still feel he has dug a deeper hole for himself through his juvenile and self-indulgent posts.
Everyone has a right to their opinion, and in my opinion he should have just let it go with the videos. No other professor who has “rebutted” via video has felt the need to stoop to the level of responding to absurd posts, and many other professors have received substantially worse comments and evaluations. That should say something.
April 28th, 2008 at 2:29 pm
I am currently in Professor Grimsley’s WWII class and I can honestly say that the class will be, by leaps and bounds, one of my favorite courses that I will take at OSU. I think the unhappiness with Professor Grimsley stems from society’s lack of ability to accept consequences for one’s actions. Professor Grimsley gives ample amount of time to show up to class and if you are excessively late, he simply imposes the consequences for that action. However, in today’s society, we simply cannot blame ourselves for our own misdoings and instead, we direct our anger toward the person who made us responsible for our actions. Most of the time, when I hear my peers complain about a professor and his/her policies, it is the student’s own wrongdoing, not the professors.
Professor Grimsley makes his students take responsibility of their life, starting with the simple task of showing up on time, and dares them to leave their educational “comfort zone.” Professor Grimsley is engaging, insightful, funny, and cares very much about the education of his students. I thank him for being an awesome professor and I appreciate his service for our country. It saddens me, though, that some of his students are too immature to realize how great of a professor they have in Mark Grimsley.
April 28th, 2008 at 7:47 pm
What cracks me up is that students think 100% of a prof’s salary comes from teaching. Hello research grants, bench research, publications, committees, training grauate students, running departments, hundreds of things you don’t even know exists.
Think it’s all about you? GROW UP.
April 28th, 2008 at 10:09 pm
I also took his history 151 class during Winter Quarter, and coming from a high school where every history teacher that I had was a football coach and couldn’t care less about the content of the subject, this was truly a nice change. I didn’t have a problem with the tardy policy — I thought it was appropriate for that large of a classroom setting. As an education major, I admire Professor Grimsley for his constant enthusiasmm which is something that is often hard to find in many general education courses. I learned a lot . . . I sometimes thought that the TA’s needed to re-evaluate their grading system, but overall, I can appreciate the course and subject matter. If you attended class, took notes, and payed attention . . . the appropriate grade would follow. It’s just like most other courses here; the effort you put into it determines how much you get out of it. People need to realize that they pay for a college education and need to be mature enough to understand that different professors have a variety of teaching methods. You don’t have to always agree — but you should at least show some respect.
April 28th, 2008 at 10:31 pm
I appreciate the fact that late students may be distracting. I have had several like-minded professors. I always told my professors upfront that I might be late because:
My husband, who was also a classmate, has social phobia, and some days no amount of prodding would get him ready in time to attend class.
I was homeschooling 4 children while attending college, and there were times when I had to finish work with them, before I could leave for class
I am on dialysis, and coming off the machine, there are frequent hemorrhaging episodes that may delay me past the start of class.
My professors weren’t always understanding– but I’m glad I persevered. Despite their disapproval, I came in late…and worked super-hard to compensate and graduated with honors.
April 28th, 2008 at 11:19 pm
Wow all this debating over a tardy policy…
I’m just glad my teachers think completely different than that and treat us like adults. The first day of class most of them told us “You or someone else pays for you to be here so if you want to be late or not come at all, I’m not going to stop you. This is not high school.”
None of my teachers so far have locked the doors or even look up at any person who comes late. One teacher in particular puts a garbage can to hold the door open the whole time so the door wont make a noise when the late people come in.
Everyone has different opinions and its true you wont always work with people you like and that means teachers too, but with teachers you only have to deal with them for a couple of months till the semester is over. If you hate them that much, after the grades have been submitted, you can go do a prank on them for annoying you or something and have a laugh.
April 29th, 2008 at 1:08 am
Jon,
I think that Grimsley sees his teaching as broader than the classroom. He runs a blog as well, and uses that for outreach. In re the Bi-Polarism, I think that he treats it something like an amputee in the classroom might. He does not pretend that he’s not missing a limb, he addresses it up front. The difference is, the stigma with missing limbs died out sometime during the Civil War (and again after WWI and WWII) societally. But the issue of BP has, until recently (and not at all in some places) remained.
Since often BP hits for the first time in late HS or college, that’s the period when kids who have not prepared themselves for it (or even knew they were vulnerable) suddenly find out.
In the military we’ve always had a huge issue with mental issues of any sort. Runs against our culture to seek help. That’s changed in the past six years because of PTSD and TBI (Traumatic Brain Injuries), stemming from the fighting we’ve been doing. But in our case it took a freakin’ *war* before attitudes started to change. As a guy raised in Ohio, with all the mid-western small-town baggage that goes with it (the sort of people who make up the overwhelming majority of Grimsley’s students I expect), I see it as valuable. Even if he only helps a few, maybe a dozen students per year, I’d say it’s yeoman’s work.
Regards,
Bob Bateman
April 29th, 2008 at 11:26 am
I took Prof. Grimsley’s History of War class last quarter and I got to say it was one of the best classes I have ever taken. The reason it was so good was because Prof. Grimsley showed actual excitement about the topic, and generally seemed to care about what he was teaching. I earned a C+ in the class not because it was a hard class, but because of I tended to skip classes. If I would have paid more attention to acting like an adult, I would have an A on my transcript. Prof. Grimsley is well organized, smart, and enthusiastic about Military History. The film clips he showed in class were relevant to what we were studying, and in fact, I have added the movies to my collection so I can use them when I teach High School Social Studies.
I have used Rate My Professors for two years now, and have found it relatively useless in evaluating professors. Like many have been saying, constructive criticism is rare on this site. I could care less about whether or not a teacher is easy or is hot. What I care about is whether or not the teacher is organized and consistent in his/her policies. Professor Grimsley is both. As students, we all have different learning styles and to rate a professor based on the fact that they may be easy doesn’t really help those of us who are looking to be challenged intellectually. Hopefully, we as students can get back to posting information about teaching styles, organization, and how we as students can make the class better.
Keep up the good work Professor Grimsley!
April 29th, 2008 at 8:36 pm
I also agree with Professor Grimsley, as a student that’s always early or right on time I can’t stand it when other students consistently walk in 10 15 even 30 minutes late! I have only attended classes with 30 students so if we are all late at least once, that’s at least 2 per class session! He states he’s got 240 students- if everyone is late even once, that’s a lot of distraction! Be prepared to leave early and arrive on time, simple as that.
April 30th, 2008 at 2:21 am
I can see both sides of this issue. I do feel that some professors are too uptight about tardiness when they should be worried about attendance. I also believe people forget that tardiness can be a culture thing also. For example, I admit I am habitually late to my classes, unless I stay on campus all day. I have two jobs that I also show up late for at times. I never mean to be late, but it almost always happens and I am usually within five minutes. Now, I am from the Deep South, known for its “what’s your hurry” attittude, but I attend school in Los Angeles. Some professors understand, some ignore it, some consider it unprofessional, some show up late themselves. But I show up to EVERY class, which to me, is more important than being ontime. I also show my willingness to learn at every opportunity. Especially since I pay for my own education. I still get my money’s worth.
April 30th, 2008 at 11:09 am
The students are the ones that pay the tuition; if they want to be late, then let them.
Now if its a test day, I can understand how troublesome tardy students can be, but if its just during a lecture then who cares?
And “it breaks my concentration”?
That sounds like a load of bull****!
How can you lecture in front of 200 students, and then say that someone walking in late is what breaks your concentration?
Anyways, I always go on this site and find teachers that arn’t assholes about attendance and tardiness. Thats the main reason I goto this site, since I’m either late or absent to most my classes
April 30th, 2008 at 6:22 pm
Professor Grimsley:
You seem like a terrific professor well aware of your own flaws and strengths. I don’t go to Ohio, but if I did, I would be sure to sit in on your lectures, or stop into your office for intelligent conversation.
In regards to lateness, (aside from breaking your concentration), its disrespectful plain and simple! And, there are soooo many professors at all sorts of universities, colleges, private and public, that have the same policies. It is completely fair. Your classroom, your rules.
Also: I think its absolutely fantastic that you take the time to respond and acknowledge the comments left here. I think it shows that you committed to trying to reach people, students, etc. That is the purest form of teaching: imparting knowledge and experience.
April 30th, 2008 at 8:23 pm
To all of the students with the “I pay your tuition” mentality, I offer the following. The numbers are arbitrary, but represent national averages for public higher ed institutions such as O.S.U.
Suppose that your yearly tuition is $9,000. Did you know that you are actually only paying about one fifth of your actual tuition? As an in-state resident, the state subsidizes the rest. But let’s forget about that- consider it a gift from the taxpayers.
About 50% of your “tuition” is actually university fees, and goes to pay things like the electricity bill and other costs related to keeping the university open. So, that part doesn’t have anything to do with my salary. That puts us down to the $4,500 range that can go in my pocket.
Now, there are generally three semesters in an academic year, so we are down to $1,500 per semester. But that’s for all of your classes, not just mine. So, let’s assume you are taking four courses. Then we are now down to $375. (This amount you are “paying me” is getting a bit smaller, huh?)
What you may not realize is that my academic appointment is 20% teaching, 60% research, and 20% administrative, so only 20% of your tuition goes in my pocket. That’s got us down to $75.
How many hours a week does our class meet? Usually three hours, right? With about 14 weeks in a semester, at 3 hours per week, you are instructed for about 42 hours for my class. YOU have so kindly contributed $75 to my salary, but divided by 42 hours that comes out to about $1.79 per hour of instruction.
Now, do you realize how silly you sound when you say that you are *paying* me for your education and that I shouldn’t have any right to enforce a few sensible rules here and there?
If you are so unhappy that I require you to be on time for 42 days out of your whole life, and that I wasn’t able to keep you fully edu-tained for those 42 hours, then please, by all means, stop by my office as soon as possible and I will give you back whatever part of your $75 you feel that I don’t deserve.
I really am beginning to wonder why I thought that I was choosing a noble profession when I chose to be an educator. I think I would get more respect working for the DMV.
April 30th, 2008 at 11:16 pm
It’s rude to walk into a professor’s class late. He’s expected to be there on time to teach you and to stay for the full time—he can’t leave “when he feels like it”. Why do you think you’re exempt from the same if you’re a student? I can understand being late because of appointments, traffic, etc., but the attitude of “I can come in whenever I want” is just plain rudeness.
May 1st, 2008 at 12:54 am
Prof Grimsley, thanks for being so open about having bipolar disorder. I have it as well. I struggled with it for 10+ years before finally being diagnosed. While the subject doesn’t come up in my discipline, I did divulge it to a small group of students I taught in an out-of-field course and they were very nice about it. I think it even helped them understand that there’s no reason to fear someone with an emotional disorder and that it’s still possible to be successful. The more people are open about it, the less stigma there will be.
I join you in your question about the worthiness of a site like the main ratemyprofessors page. The students who post here are often angry and often very mean. As one colleague of mine said, it should be called getevenwithmyprofessors.com. Unfortunately, many college age students haven’t yet developed the maturity to express their opinions in a more constructive way. No matter how many kind words are said about my teaching, the nasty comments about the work to which I devote my life hurt me. Naturally they’re welcome to exercise their freedom to say and write as they wish, and I’ll just exercise my freedom not to read their words.
May 1st, 2008 at 2:05 pm
I think him being distracted shows that he is thin skinned.
May 1st, 2008 at 6:41 pm
Mike, you moron. He is thin skinned? Don’t be late to class. It is so simple. Stop feeling defensive because you are always late and don’t blame the professor.
May 1st, 2008 at 9:17 pm
I was never late to class first of all. Second, I think you have something wrong with you. Are you having dellusions? Just to let you know and to put you in touch with reality, I never blamed the professor. I just made the point that he is thin skinned because he is oversensitive for students who come in late. It’s okay, buddy, talk to your doctor about antipsychotics.
May 1st, 2008 at 9:39 pm
Actually, I didn’t read the second post that Mark made. I have been on those medications too as I was diagnosed with BP disorder. They make you highly sensitive about a lot of different things. It is truly amazing that he shared that with people if that is really him who posted. I am really surprised he has the balls to come on this site and do this.
May 1st, 2008 at 9:51 pm
Some more or less final thoughts:
Re the “don’t be late” business: A number of viewers, I think, have understandably scrolled down straight from the video clips to post a comment and may have missed my actual tardiness policy, which is a little more nuanced than the clip would indicate. You’ll find it in the first of my comments, near the top of this thread.
Even so, I doubt it will change the minds of those who think it’s “high school” to be required to attend class and/or be on time, and “adult” to be free of these requirements. If that’s the case, enjoy being an “adult” while you can. Employers tend to take a more “high school” view of attendance and tardiness.
Re the bipolar disorder: I appreciate the supportive comments from Deanna, Bob B., and Math Prof. I have several reasons for being open about the disorder, but chief among them is that over the years I’ve met a lot of people with the disorder who feel isolated, worry about the stigma, and wonder if they can lead a more or less normal life. Since the early 20s are an age when the disorder is commonly diagnosed, this is especially true of undergraduates.
That’s why I’ve made a personal choice to be open about having the disorder — it should go without saying, btw, that others with the disorder have a complete right to keep it private should they choose. Anything I can do to let them know they’re not alone, and to underscore that this is an illness that can be managed, is to me worth doing.
I’ve written elsewhere on the Internet about living and working with bipolar disorder; for instance, here:
http://www.insidehighered.com/views/2006/09/26/grimsley
And finally, to my students Kyle, Tara, and Todd: thank you. The great majority of the students I’ve taught are terrific. Were it otherwise, I could never enjoy teaching as much as I do.
May 2nd, 2008 at 1:00 am
Hi Mark,
Your late rule is a good one. I do get distracted when people come in late. I’m often late and am embarrassed about it. I find it very difficult to be around many people in one enclosed room, so coming even 1 minute early is out of the question. Subconsciously I think I make myself late so that I have a reason not to go, even though I really want to be there. (I’m the one who’s the last one on and off the airplane.) Too much commotion makes me scared.
As for youngens using this website, I’m a mature student and I use this website to help plan which sections of courses I take. Obviously I read subjectively. I’m going to take courses where many students share their input and generally think their teachers are encouraging and are involved in their career.
I have no other way of knowing what profs are like. I’m going to take the calculus class with the professor whose students say class is interesting and fun as opposed to the prof who gets rated by 30 people as dull and unavailable. Am I supposed to ask the university to tell me what their teachers are honestly like? Meet and get to know all the teachers before I register for a class?
I like the prof feedback section of this website. I like how you read and reply. It shows you care. Thank you.
May 2nd, 2008 at 6:20 pm
Hi Professor Grimsley,
First, I should mention that we “enemies” on two levels.
I received my undergraduate degree at U of Iowa and we don’t like the way the Buckeyes routinely whoop us in football. But I just received my Master’s degree from the University of Michigan Gerald R. Ford School of Public Policy (gasp!). We in Wolverineland are not too pleased with the way you’ve dominated us over these past 7 years or so. But I digress. Besides being a graduate student, I was also an instructor, teaching discussion classes on a communications course. As a graduate student, my professors made no bones that they expected us to show up on time. As a 30-year old, should I have taken offense? **** no! Aside from being an issue of courtesy, it is also a fact that in the real world I will be expected to be punctual. As an instructor, I expected my students to be on time and those who acted most like adults were the ones who “get it.”
Second, I definitely admire you for your openness on your bipolar disorder. My mother also suffers from it and even when properly treated it is still a huge daily challenge.
Third, I’ve noticed that a lot of these kids who are taking a swipe at you and your policies haven’t even bothered to read most of the clarifying comments. It’s pretty hard to have intelligent discourse when they don’t know the facts.
Fourth, in regards to these students who are saying, “We are late sometimes because we have lives” is a total BS excuse. College IS your job whether you are receiving a paycheck or not. In my classes, I recognized that sometimes students will sometimes be late. Thus, I required that they provide a legitimate excuse that can be verified. If it’s that they simply took too long eating lunch, watching a TV show, chatting on the phone, etc, too bad. I’d say that 90% of the time their tardiness was due to circumstances entirely within their control.
Finally, I think “rate my professor” is mostly a farce and does not truly reflect professor performance. It is dominated by students who are looking to vent their anger. Human nature dictates that people who are angry and dissatisfied about something will always be more vocal than people who are satisfied. The professor whom I worked for (Brad Bushman) has some scathing reviews on the “rate my” site. And yet his scores on the student evaluations (which are the only ones that count; they determine things like salaries and even tenure) are always 4.88 out of 5.
Okay, long message. Good luck professor!
May 2nd, 2008 at 6:22 pm
Wow. I get the asterisk treatment for saying H-E-Double Hockey Stick? For being an MTV-sponsored site, the folks who run this joint sure are prudish!
May 2nd, 2008 at 9:10 pm
I can’t believe how many people here think that there shouldn’t be late policies… As a student, I have to say it really angers me (not to mention distracts me) that you can’t come to class (on time), pay attention, and leave (on time). How is that so much to ask? Not only can so many of you not show up on time, but then you decide to get up and use the restroom in the middle of class, or even worse go make a phone call… And if you’re not making phone calls you’re sending text messages IN CLASS! You need to learn to respect not only your professor, but your fellow students who are TRYING TO LEARN WHILE YOU’RE JACKING AROUND!
May 3rd, 2008 at 7:54 pm
Everybody here is so passionate about the late policy! Seriously, mini-essays out the metaphorical wazoo.
I agree that coming in late is just disrespectful, and that the students ARE adults, and being penalized for being late is the same as being treated as an adult. I’m just glad I’m early to most of my classes… I’ll blame a little bit of that on obsessive-compulsiveness, although I’ve also had too many jobs where being 10 minutes early meant you were right on time if not a little late. I’ve only ever been late to class a couple of times, and even then I apologize to the professor (AFTER class kthnx, please don’t disrupt it more than you already have). I can understand people coming in late occasionally, but not habitually, and especially not sauntering in with a coffee, looking bored. If you had time to stop by Starbucks you had time to get to class before he/she started lecturing. The coffee there is delicious but it’s not going anywhere, really.
But you know what else I hate? Professors who show up late. That’s right, it goes both ways. Especially if they have tenure and the reason they show up late is that they honestly don’t care. Insert growling noise here.
May 3rd, 2008 at 10:39 pm
Shy about dealing with 250 students, but in your spare time you create videos that has a potential outreach of hundreds of thousands of viewers, allllllright. I have yet to go to a professional conference in my lifetime where every member was on time. I have had jobs where getting there ten minutes early meant you were on time, that was eight years ago and as I recall I was delivering food orders, but as far as “careers” in the real world are concerned, I have never seen someone confronted about tardiness after even several offenses. Habitual rule-breakers? throw them out of your class, but one time offenders? get real. I know that history professors have difficulty associating with the working world, but catch up.
May 4th, 2008 at 10:48 am
As a Community College Instructor, I totally AGREE with the tardy policy. I have students approach me after class all the time…complaining that they were on time and someone down the row came in late. They have to move their back-packs, scoot over and otherwise miss vital information from my lecture just because someone else came in late! And, in my experience, the tardy student THEN has the nerve to ask the early student….”Where is she…what page…can I borrow your notes…etc.” which CONTINUES to disrupt me and everyone else. Be on time!!!!
May 4th, 2008 at 11:41 am
I agree with his policy whole-heartedly. I hate how I’ll be in class in a big lecture hall sometimes and somebody will walk in, non-chalantly and have to disrupt everybody in my row in order to sit down, then act as if I’m the one being unreasonable for getting perturbed. Kudos to you, Mr. Grimsley.
May 5th, 2008 at 10:50 am
Teaching is not easy. It’s not just standing in front of people and talking about a topic you love. The relationship between teacher and student is complex. The levels of interaction may be varied but ultimately, I feel an incredible responsibility to give my students the best opportunity to succeed. It weighs upon me sometimes. It truly affects me. So, I don’t have a problem asking my students to offer me a fraction of the dedication that I give them.
I ask only that that my students come to class on time and complete the required work. If they only knew what I try to give them in return.
I applaud you Professor Grimsley. It wouldn’t be so hard if we didn’t care so damn much.
May 5th, 2008 at 1:23 pm
With all due respect to you beleaguered professors: A good portion of being a professor is / thinking about / reading about / writing about / organizing information about/ and standing in front of people talking about a topic you love.
My HS-dropout parents worked in various factories. It would show great disrespect to the billions of workers in the world to raise the complex interpersonal communications that professors believe they deal with above the subtle interpersonal interactions among workers-foreman-supervisor-owner.
I agree that we should get the respect and output that we demand from our students, but let’s not kid ourselves about how weighty our tasks are.
May 5th, 2008 at 9:38 pm
I am not easily distracted from late comers. However, I am human being enough to realize OTHER people might be…so even if the professor is lying…there are still 200+ students in there to think about than myself.
You want to be treated like an adult? Then act like one, realize that the professor is an authority figure that we must listen to and follow his rules. You don’t like it…drop the ******* class. Does your job let you come in late? No. So be an adult and make sure you can arrive early to class. I’m tired of being in class with people who I see talking on their phone or to a friend right before class and then come in five or ten minutes later. It is ******* rude, I don’t care how you try to spin it.
Hey prof…don’t listen to the ******* that complained about your blog or experience in the Guard, and I think you should stop explaining yourself to them.
May 6th, 2008 at 1:59 am
I think you have a good lateness policy, and if I went to OU would probably try to take one of your classes
May 6th, 2008 at 11:39 pm
Thank you Professor Grimsley, for providing explanations and intelligent discussion with all the folks who have commented. I am very sorry to see that most of your patient dialog is wasted on the few who cannot see the other side.
In college I have learned you can take the irresponsible way filled with excuses, or you can learn responsibility and that the world of being an adult is not like the free world of a child. You merely are trading one set of rules for another, but the trade up comes with a lot of fine print. The first big change is consequences are now shifted from your parents to yourself. This is generally very shocking and hard to accept sometimes taking many years to fully comprehend and appreciate. I understand where one can become too self-involved and feel exempt from that truth; I was once guilty of that way of thought.
May 9th, 2008 at 2:22 pm
I don’t go to OSU and never will but my two cents (coming from a military vet) is to steal a phrase “Lighten up Francis”.
Having a zero tolerance one size fits all late policy is absurd. Some students are single parents, some are older people returning to college, some are disabled.
Why force military discipline on students? If they wanted discipline they would have joined. Besides since you were in the military distractions should not be an issue at all. Enemy fire overhead is a distraction not a late student (lets have some perspective here).
As far as criticizing sites like ratemyprofessor I am baffled. If students won’t take your class based on the professors policies how is that a bad thing? The student is not a distraction to the professor and the student can get their education in a better environment for them. It’s a win win as far as I’m concerned.
I have nothing against Mr. Grimsley and he sounds like a decent guy but if I was in his class we would butt heads quite a few times. Hence why I would not take his class if I went to OSU.
May 11th, 2008 at 4:28 am
i took history 380 with professor grimsley during winter quarter. i am an english major and that cla